CARL CEDERSTRĆM: This interview will focus on your life and how you got into philosophy. But before that I would like to ask a more general question about the relation between philosophy and biography. What can you say about this connection?
SIMON CRITCHLEY: I think that thereās an essential connection between biography and philosophy. The standard version of the history of philosophy begins with Socrates, with a life and a death. It begins with four dialogues by Plato (Apology, Euthyphro, Crito and Phaedo), on the trial and execution of Socrates. These dialogues give us a picture of Socratesā life, his teachings and, signiļ¬cantly, the manner of his death at the hands of the Athenian authorities. Philosophy begins with an act of political assassination. We shouldnāt forget that. As is clear from a later text like Diogenes Laertiusā Lives and Opinions of Eminent Philosophers, in the ancient world philosophy had an intimate connection with biography. The biography was a kind of propaedeutic to philosophy. If philosophy was a way of life, then the lives of the philosophers were essential objects of study. You can point to other examples of the way in which biography persists in relation to philosophy all the way up to Spinoza, where, on the one hand, we donāt know much about Spinozaās life, but then, in the years after his death, three biographies appeared. He became a sort of atheist saint. And then, with someone like Nietzsche, where the life and the work get confused, where in a sense the life is the work and the work is the life.
CC: The idea that philosophy cannot be separated from oneās life. Is that an idea that would apply also to you, that your life and work have become inseparable?
SC: Hoist with my own petard, I suppose. The twentieth-century attitude, particularly in the Anglo-American world ā but not just in the Anglo-American world ā is that philosophy has no relationship to biography. The idea is that philosophical arguments are true by virtue of their form, or by virtue of their proof, or by their ability to be veriļ¬ed, while the facts about the person who wrote those things are of no importance. Thatās true in Analytic philosophy, but also in Continental philosophy. Heidegger says in a lecture course about Aristotle from the 1920s that he was born, he worked and he died ā and thatās all we need to know. So thereās a real hostility to biography in twentieth-century philosophy, which goes together with a sort of modernist aesthetic, an austerity that tries to separate the truth of the work from oneās life. For my part, I think biography is important as a path into philosophy, and also a sort of test of philosophy; and to whether life and work can be integrated. In my case, life and work are completely confused.
CC: Philosophizing oneās life can be done in a variety of ways, of course. On the one hand, it could be a way to protect oneself. It offers a language, and a rather seductive language at that, through which you might externalize yourself, or become detached and distanced. But, on the other hand, it could also be the case that philosophy might be extremely painful, taking you in undesired and embarrassing directions.
SC: Yeah, the idea is whether philosophy is protection and detachment, or exposure and risk. I think itās both, although itās probably more protective. You see, this is what a lot of philosophy teachers do. They will construct a persona, which seems to be a biographical persona ā it seems to be someone they actually are ā but really itās just a protective structure. The person they are in public has no relation to who they are. So thereās a fake protection of giving oneself a public persona, which has no relation to oneself. But philosophy, or to philosophize, can also be about exposure and risk; and it should be. This exposure can happen in different ways, of course, not least through psychoanalysis.
CC: At the same time thereās this fear to be spoken of, which is perhaps why psychoanalysts like Lacan and Freud burnt manuscripts on a couple of occasions ā for fear of what future biographers would do with them. This would be the ļ¬ip side of psychoanalysis, and maybe also philosophy: the hesitation to symbolize or write oneself. Can you feel this fear of being written?
SC: What happens, ineluctably and regrettably, is that one becomes a brand: a persona about which various stories, anecdotes and gossip can be circulated. That can ring incredibly hollow and creates I feel, at times, a feeling of utter self-revulsion. Look, I try to be truthful. But I also donāt believe we have any privileged intuition into who we are. I donāt think introspection produces such great wonders. I think consciousness is a kind of mĆ©connaisance, a misrecognition, as Lacan says. What Iāve learnt from psychoanalysis is that whatever insight I might have into myself is something I normally get from another person; usually and hopefully a person I love. The person you love can tell you something about yourself, from which you can then learn who you are.
CC: You have jokingly said that youāre a critical, secular, well-dressed post-Kantian ā would that be your brand?
SC: No. That was said as a rhetorical ploy in a sort of critical, secular, liberal, post-Kantian context ā you know, some of those gorgeous, super-clever, holier-than-thou people you ļ¬nd in New York. I donāt think Iām any of those. Iām not particularly critical or even particularly good at criticism. Iām not secular, thatās for sure. I have a much more tortured relationship to religion and issues of faith. Maybe Iām post-Kantian, but in a pretty strange way. And Iām not liberal, in any way at all.
CC: OK. With this in mind, could we perhaps go back in time to speak about you?
SC: If you insist. Iād rather talk about you.
CC: But thatās not going to happen. Weāre going to speak about you. Now, I donāt know much about your childhood. The only thing that youāve mentioned is that you were in a school with 11-year-old boys with beards and that you, in order to escape all the violence, had to perform exceptionally well so that you could get into another school. And this was in Liverpool?
SC: No, my family is from Liverpool, but I grew up in Letchworth Garden City, 30 miles north of London, in Hertfordshire, affectionately known as the wasteland.
CC: What kind of place was that?
SC: A wasteland, like I said. It was built as a Quaker socialist utopia in 1900. It was a project called Garden Cities ā really interesting idea ā with a tree outside every house, social housing and all the rest. My dad, Bill Critchley, left Liverpool in the ā50s because there was no work. He came south, and then the family came after him ā basically, economic migration. The usual story. My dad was a sheet-metal worker, and my mother, Sheila, who had worked as a hairdresser in Liverpool, was home looking after my sister, who is six years older than me. As a sheet-metal worker, a rented house came with the job. He worked very hard and he did well and he was promoted. And when I was 8 years old we bought a house ā which was a big deal ā and we moved to the other side of town. So we moved from what was a very working-class area to a more middle-class area. And I changed schools. I went to the local school around the corner and then the local public primary school, as theyāre called in England.
CC: So how did you experience school? Were you considered a good student?
SC: Yes. I did really well in school at that point. At the age of 5, 6, 7 I was really good ā top of the class. But then we moved and I started a new school where I got bullied, for maybe two years. It was horrible. I was around 9, 10 at the time ā it was an awful period ā and I remember that I refused to go to school because I was so terriļ¬ed of being beaten up. But what saved me was football. I could play football and it is still maybe the governing passion of my life. My only religious commitment is to Liverpool Football Club. My dad had been trained at the Liverpool ground and he had taught me. He stopped playing because of an ankle injury. I was pretty good for a kid from Letchworth. I was fast and I was big. And I got onto the school team and the county team. Only two kids from my school got onto the county team ā this was a big deal. So suddenly, at 10 years old, I had a lot of respect. So football saved my life. I still got beaten up, and I got beaten up for the way I spoke. So I changed the way I spoke overnight and lost my Liverpool accent for this entirely bland way I speak now. I donāt know how much violence there is now, with kids.
CC: Quite a lot I imagine, especially here in London.
SC: I remember an awful lot of violence and I got beaten up regularly. But basically, to go back to your question, it was the fear of physical violence that focused my mind on school. This is true ā youād think I was making this shit up ā but itās actually true: my teacher in school, in the ļ¬nal year of primary school, found me and two other boys, jumping on desks and making noise ā we were 10 years old. And this man, a grown-up man in his thirties, dragged us out of the classroom and hit all of us until we fell over. Seriously, he beat us to the ground. And we just took it. Eventually, weeks later, we complained to our parents, who then complained to the school, and he was dismissed the following year. I saw him driving a cab some years later.
CC: So you were working hard to escape the violence, both from teachers and violent 10-year-olds with beards?
SC: Yes. And in those days it was a very simple system. You knew exactly where you were in the hierarchy. The top ten students from the primary school got into the grammar school, and the grammar school was an academic school, which meant that there were no big men with beards and your face wasnāt pushed down the toilet everyday (who knows, psychoanalytically understood, maybe this was what I secretly desired). So through this fear of going to what was then called the secondary modern school, where 90 per cent of the population went, I realized I had to work. So I worked my way up to the ļ¬rst table and passed the entrance exam, what was called at the time the ā11 plusā.
CC: So you made it. How was grammar school?
SC: We were taught by these very old men who wore gowns, and they were very ferocious. We did Latin, ancient history, sciences, languages (French and Russian) and English literature. There was an ancient history teacher who had a huge impact on me. We just did ancient history for two years and I became obsessed with it. Still am. I still have a book from those days, because I stole it from the library. Itās called Everyday Life in Babylon and Assyria. A real page-turner. I read this when I was 11 years old. It was wonderful. I read about the ancient world, Mesopotamian culture, Sumerian, Babylonian, Assyrian and then the Greeks. I was reading books ā very simple ones like Kittoās book The Greeks ā on ancient history and that captivated me. When I did philosophy 11 years later I already had an attraction to Greek philosophy for that reason. What interested me about ancient history was the fact that it bore no relation to reality. It seemed to be a complete fantasy world. When history became real, I remember when we got to medieval history and then early modern history I entirely lost interest.
CC: How about your parents, were they supportive in your ambitions?
SC: My parents were great, but they had no particular interest in my education. They were encouraging at certain moments, but for the most part they were neutral. I was at a grammar school, and I think they were pleased, but I certainly wasnāt pushed. And then when I went to university, when I was 22, in October 1982, I was actually discouraged very strongly by my parents; they thought it was a completely ludicrous idea. Ours was not an educated family and I was the ļ¬rst one that went beyond 16. My father and mother left school when they were 14.
CC: So it was not your parents who pushed you in the direction of becoming a philosopher?
SC: Oh no. My father would have been delighted if Iād worked in a factory, and my mother wouldāve been ecstatic if Iād worked in a bank, because thatās a good job ā what could be better than that? The other important thing about these years was that my mother and father split up. I was 14 at the time, although it had been in the air for at least the three previous years. My father had a succession of affairs and then ended up leaving my mother for his secretary ā a depressingly predictable scenario. My sister got married when I was 14, and that turned out to be the last time I saw my whole extended Liverpool family together for many years ā which was a pity because weād been really close.
CC: And how did you react to the divorce?
SC: Badly. After the divorce, I did catastrophically at school. I went from being a pretty good student to failing all my O-levels at 16, which is this qualiļ¬cation that you needed to get in order to go on to A-levels and then university. I failed them in a spirit of wilful self-destruction. I left formal education at the age of 16 with one āCā grade in geography. Iāve always loved maps. I remember that I went to the pub after everybody else got their results. Everybody had done a lot better than me. And it then hit me that maybe I had made a huge mistake, because I deliberately failed them. I thought education was ridiculous. At that point I was into progressive German music like Can, Neu!, Kraftwerk and Tangerine Dream (the ļ¬rst band I saw live when I was 14) ā these were the only things that were really important to me. To get some money to survive over the summer, my best friend Russell and I signed on the dole. It felt great. I then went to a catering technical college, which was a further education college for people learning to become welders and hairdressers or whatever. It wasnāt exactly a great place, but it was next to the school. In fact, my old school was closed and turned into an unemployment beneļ¬t ofļ¬ce and the catering technical college was demolished and replaced by a supermarket ā thatās progress! So I was at catering technical college for two years, which was an absolute disaster. I had no interest in it at all. I was playing in all these bands, and then punk happened, in winter 1976. Year zero!
CC: Punk has obviously had a huge impact on your life ā and you often return to the theme in your work. In Very Little . . . Almost Nothing, for example, you describe punk as āacting like an oxygen tank for those being suffocated for what passes for life in English suburbiaā. Can you describe that moment when punk happened?
SC: Punk happened really fast. It was a transcendent moment. I remember hearing the ļ¬rst Ramones album, at a friendās house very late at night and ādrunkā, as it were. Suddenly it was as if every record I had heard ā and all that mattered to me, as a kid, was listening to music and buying albums ā had been erased. And then all these bands entered the scene, like, The Damned, The Buzzcocks and, obviously, The Sex Pistols and The Clash. But I also loved lesser-known bands like The Vibrators, The Only Ones and The Radiators from Outer Space. And also Wire. I still love Wire, especially āOutdoor Minerā. It was that feeling of being part of something magical: that London was the centre of the world. Crucially, a lot of punk was not by Londoners: it was by kids out in the suburbs, in the wasteland, places like Bromley, who identiļ¬ed with London as a magical place. This is 1976ā7, and I was a big-time punk, with bondage trousers, ten-hole Dr Martens boots and a Lewis leather jacket.
CC: But we both know that you didnāt become a rock star, but a philosopher. So what happened?
SC: What happened was that I had an industrial accident ā and this is really important. It was in September 1978, and I was working in a pharmaceutical factory in Hitchin, where my mum and I moved early in 1978, because we had to sell the house. I was taking out powder from a machine, in which you had metal paddles, about an inch thick, mixing the drugs. And in order to get all the powder out you had to reach into the machine with your hand and push it all down into the hole, at which point some fucking idiot turned on the machine and my hand was trapped inside it. I remember that Jilted Johnās ļ¬rst single was on the radio. I literally had to bend the paddles to pull my hand out of the machine. All the bones were smashed and the tendons severed. I was in hospital for two weeks and then had to go through three operations. Skin grafts, reconstructive surgery. The whole banana. After two weeks, I was told by the doctor that I could keep my hand. Until that time I had no idea that I could have lost it. But the hand was so badly damaged they were expecting it to rot. Funnily enough, Iām registered disabled because of the hand. I have a 15 per cent impairment. I canāt make a ļ¬st, for example. Sort of symbolic. So, Iām 18 years old and the only things I enjoy are playing guitar and writing songs. And my left hand is my guitar hand, so I thought I could never play guitar again. I went into a massive depression, the whole of that winter, for six, seven months. And to overcome the depression I did an awful lot of drugs. But then, of course, you get even more depressed. I was going to London a lot at this time, hanging out with the wrong people, drug-dealers and the like. I still had this ambition of playing in bands, switched over to keyboards and then discovered I could still play guitar, but in a different way, I had to relearn the whole thing and then carried on with a failed musical career.
CC: This was a life-changing event?
SC: Yes, and I think it could be help...