A Leader of Women
Phyllis Chesler Interviewed by Ellen Cole
Dr. Phyllis Chesler is the author of seven books including Women and Madness (1972), About Men (1978), Mothers on Trial: The Battle for Children and Custody (1986) and most recently, Patriarchy: Notes of an Expert Witness (1994). She has published articles in both popular and academic journals, including law journals. Dr. Chesler has been working on a book about the nationâs so-called first female serial killer. She has been suffering from Chronic Fatigue Immune Dysfunction Syndrome for 4 years. Dr. Chesler has testified as an expert witness in a wide variety of cases. She is a co-founder of the Association for Women in Psychology, The National Womenâs Health Network, and the Editor-at-Large for On The Issues magazine.
Correspondence may be addressed to Phyllis Chesler at 732A Carroll Street, New York, NY 11215.
Oneâs first book takes oneâs whole life to write. Maybe I was born to write Women and Madness. I think I would have written it no matter when Iâd been bornâbut without a radical feminist movement moving in the world, you would never have heard of it, no one would have cared about it, other feminists couldnât have inspired it, blessed it, passed it round, from hand to hand.
Iâand my generation of feministsâhit the ground running. We were part of an extraordinary moment in history. I am extremely privileged. Women tell me that my work has saved and changed their lives. Women and Madness has been cited literally thousands of times in hundreds of academic journals, and in the popular media, itâs been translated into many European languages. I have traveled all over the world to lecture, and to meet with other feminists. This is no small thing; this is a miraculous, and wonderful thing.
I donât know what kind of life I would have lived had there been no modern feminist movement. A lesser life, Iâm sure, and a more miserable one. When I was a child, Iâd met no woman whoâd graduated from college or whoâd had a âcareer,â other than that of teacher, nurse or secretary. In high school, college, and graduate school, I had only a handful of women teachers. I had no female (or male) mentors or role models. Women were not my intellectual comradesâonly books were.
Then in 1967, life gained its fourth dimension, the world was suddenly bursting with brave, bold, beautiful, adventurous creaturesâand most of them were women. And feminists. How interesting!
In 1969, I was 29 years old. I was a brand-new PhD, a psychotherapist-in-training, an Assistant Professor and a researcher. And I knew almost nothing about how to help another woman save her own life.
Most of what we take for granted today was not even whispered about thirty years ago. For example, none of my graduate school teachers in the 1960s ever mentioned that women (or men) were oppressed or that people suffer when theyâre victimized, and then blamed for their own misery. None of my clinical supervisors (or analysts) ever suggested that I use my own experience as a woman in order to understand women and mental health. In fact, no one ever taught me to administer a test for mental healthâonly for mental illness.
No matter. I was studying what women âreally wantedâ when they entered psychotherapy; I planned to present my findings at the 1970 annual convention of The American Psychological Association (APA) in Miami. I went to the convention and decided not to deliver my prepared paper. Instead, on behalf of the newly founded Association for Women in Psychology (AWP), I asked APA members for one million dollars âin reparationsâ on behalf of women who had never been helped, but who had, in fact, been further abused by the mental health professions: punitively labelled, overly tranquilized, sexually seduced while in treatment, hospitalized against their will, given shock therapy, lobotomized, and deeply disliked as too âaggressive,â âpromiscuous,â âdepressed,â âugly,â âold,â âdisgustingâ or âincurable.â âMaybe AWP could set up an alternative to a mental hospital with the money,â I said, âor a shelter for runaway wives.â
The audience laughed at me. Loudly. Nervously. Some of my two thousand colleagues made jokes about my âpenis envy.â Some looked embarrassed, others relieved. Obviously, I was âcrazy.â
I started writing Women and Madness on the plane back to New York. I immersed myself in the psychoanalytic literature, located biographies and autobiographies of women whoâd been psychiatrically diagnosed or hospitalized; read novels and poems about sad, mad, bad women; devoured mythology and anthropology, especially about Goddesses, matriarchies and Amazons. I began analyzing the âmental illnessâ statistics and relevant psychological and psychiatric studies. I also began interviewing the experts: women patients.
The ideas in Women and Madness announced, anticipated, many of the next steps in feminist theory and practice, including many of the themes Iâd subsequently explore. For example, Women and Madness may have been the first feminist work (in this era), to talk about incest and rape, about female role models, female heroism, in both military and spiritual terms, and about warrior and mother goddesses. (Theyâre role modelsâwhich was precisely the subject of my Ph.D. dissertation âThe Maternal Influence in Learning by Observation in Cats and Kittens.â And I published it in Science magazine, in 1969.) The unconscious always moves in rather obvious ways.
In the 1972 Introduction to Women and Madness, I retell the myth of Demeter, a mother goddess, and her daughter, Persephone; their losing each other is what happens to most mothers and daughters in patriarchy. However, their remaining together means that Persephone merely repeats a maternal destiny, and rarely develops beyond her relationship to her mother. Years later, I now see I was also writing about a custody battle! between a mother, Demeter, and a father, Hades, the king of the underworld.
In a sense, although I worked very, very hard to research and write Women and Madness, itâs almost as if Iâd channelled the book. How else did I know what I obviously âknew,â and yet had never read or heard about before? However, I was inspired, empowered, by an outpouring of feminist pamphlets, books, articles, conferences, and by meetings with extraordinary women: Ti-Grace Atkinson, Pauline Bart, Rita Mae Brown, Joann Evans Gardner, Vivian Gornick, Barbara Joans, Flo Kennedy, Jill Johnston, Leigh Marlowe, Kate Millett, Robin Morgan, Marge Piercy, Martha Shelley, Alix Kate Shulman, Kate Stimpson, Gloria Steinem, Elaine Stocker, Naomi Weissteinâto name only a few.
Women and Madness was published in October, 1972. Over the years, it would sell more than two million copies and be translated into many European languages and ultimately into Japanese and Hebrew. For awhile, I was deluged by media requests and interviewed everywhere on every conceivable subject. I received at least 10,000 letters. (I have answered them by continuing to write and act.) Women told me that Iâd âsaved their livesâ; Would I be their therapist? If not, would I recommend one? Could I get them out of a mental hospital or into a better one? Would I testify for them in court, supervise their doctoral dissertations, conduct a workshop at their clinic, lecture at their universities? Would I be willing to talk to their husbands, mothers, children?
Although a lot has changedâafter all, here we are; in reality, very little has changed. Today, women psychiatrists at the National Institute of Mental Health and Naval officers are ordered into psychiatric treatment when they allege sex-discrimination or harassment; mothers who allege that their children are being incestuously abused usually lose custody and gain psychiatric diagnoses such as Munchausenâs Syndrome By Proxy or Borderline Personality.
Women with heart disease and other medical ailments often go undiagnosed and untreated, while impatient physicians, male and female, tranquilize and psychiatrically diagnose their symptoms away. Disabled women, myself included: women with Multiple Sclerosis, Lyme Disease, Chronic Fatigue Immune Dysfunction Syndrome, Lupus, etc., are routinely forced into psychiatric exams. Catch-22: If they pass, they lose their disability coverage; if they fail, they win a useless, inaccurate psychiatric diagnosis.
Women in need of treatment: incest and rape survivors, and battered women, for example, can rarely find quality, affordable treatment. The same is true for women alcoholics and drug addicts, and for those who truly suffer from mental illness.
After nearly 30 years of struggle, I and most other radical feminists still have no institutional power. What we know, dies with us. Without institutional power, we canât pass our knowledge on to the next generations.
My greatest sorrow is that I have, so far, been prevented from continuously teaching the next generations in a hands-on way; and that my work, like so many radical feminist works, has, over and over again, been âdisappearedâ in my own lifetime.
For example, three of my six books are currently out-of-print: Women, Money and Power (1976), With Child: A Diary of Motherhood (1979) and Sacred Bond: The Legacy of Baby M (1987). [Currently in print: Women and Madness (1972), About Men (1978), and Mothers on Trial: The Battle for Children and Custody (1986).]
At first, I never even noticed when one of my books went out of print, I was too busy writing new books, embarking on new campaigns. Only gradually, did I begin to understand that Iâd have to campaign, over and over again, to keep each book in printâor it would die.
Ah, even as I write this, I think: women are dying just because theyâre women, and Iâm talking about books going out of print! How dare I complain? Iâm not dead, homeless, or in jail; Iâm literate, educated, I do not have to earn my living on my back or in the fields, Iâm living in America, not in a war zone ⌠but I am living in a war zone.
What Iâm about to describe has happened to every radical feminist lucky enough to have had a university position. And to me, too.
In 1969â70, at Richmond College, now the College of Staten Island, The City University of New York (CUNY), I taught one of the first âaccreditedâ Womensâ Studies courses and co-founded one of the first Womensâ Studies Programs in the country. (If I were a man, perhaps Iâd have been rewarded for doing something as innovative and enduring as this.)
By 1970â71, I had also convinced my mainly male colleagues to hire 6â7 women for 9â10 available positions; Drs. Maxine Bernstein, Dorothy Riddle, Nancy Russo and Sandra Tangri were among them. I also helped set up a student-run feminist OB/GYN clinic, a child care center, and a rape crisis center on campus. For good measure, I also persuaded the school to allow women to study self-defense for credit. Early on, I was also associated with the womensâ class action lawsuit against CUNY.
I loved teaching, I loved my students. I lectured with passion and devotion. I âhung outâ with my students, invited them over for coffee, just as if they were at Oxford or Cambridge, and not at a working class public institution. (I was often accused of holding extra classes off-campus, and threatened with exposure and expulsion for doing so.)
By 1971, my colleagues, the administration, and some well-briefed students, were constantly bringing me up on âchargesâ at my own campus: I was anti-male, I used âsexually explicitâ language, I forced my students to read feminist works, I didnât âloveâ my students (the way a Good Mother should)âhow could I? I was too busy publishing! And lecturing, off-campus, and on the airwaves.
Some say: âpublish or perish.â I publishedâin academic journals and in the mainstream media, and I was still forced to battle for tenure: hard; for the right to keep my tenured position: constantly; and for each and every promotion thereafter.
Iâll never forget the questions my Staten Island colleagues asked when Iâd formally appeal my non-promotions. Some colleagues who sat in judgement, both male and female, had rarely published anything; and in my view, those who had, had published either mediocre, minor, imitative, or fiercely patriarchal works. But I was not there to judge them. Their comments, upon turning down my various appeals of non-promotion, included: âBut youâre only publishing things about women! That doesnât countâ; or âYouâre publishing too muchâ; or âYour reading lists have the wro...