CHAPTER ONE
JON RONSON
â âThe Fun Is When Youâre The Idiotâ
Jon Ronson is an extraordinary man. An unblinking social commentator in books like The Psychopath Test and So Youâve Been Publicly Shamed, his book The Men Who Stare at Goats was made into a movie starring George Clooney, and Jon also wrote the superb film Frank, loosely based on his life playing keyboards for Frank Sidebottom. He is also an excellent radio broadcaster, as I discovered when he interviewed me for an hour on his radio show about why I once hid behind a car rather than say hello to him.
Despite hiding from him (I had a hangover and wasnât feeling very chatty), I like Jon a lot. He is an unusual mixture of investigative journalist and deceptive personality writer, one of those writers who you often end up telling all your deepest secrets. Conversely, even though he writes in the first person (and, in both Frank and The Men Who Stare At Goats, has been played by Domhnall Gleeson and Ewen McGregor), in his writing Jon reveals very little about himself â other than his powerful insights into other people. He is as much a journalist as he is a personal writer: he interviews, he researches, he refines and he edits: he is The Man Who Stares at Quotes.
Jon and I met for coffee in the bar of the London hotel where he was staying on a flying visit from his home in New York and, after we had got through a weird moment when one of the hotel staff asked him to take his hat off, I began the interview at the point where I wanted this book to start â at the beginning of the writerâs day.
DAVID: Youâre awake. What time is it and what are you thinking about?
JON: I tend to wake up between half six and seven. I used to be really superstitious. I used to think that the first four to six hours of the day from when I wake up was the only time I can write, so I canât be interrupted during that time because itâs eating into my only productive time of day. But then I started to realize thatâs not true. I think it is true that I can only write productively for four to six hours a day, but that can be at any time during the day. So if I have to do other shit, like stuff that doesnât stress me out or tax me, if I have to do a whole bunch of that first thing in the morning and the four to six hours starts at one in the morning, that still works. It took me years to work that out, I was running to my desk at half six in the morning thinking, âChrist, I canât waste a minute of this only time that I can work.â
DAVID: You sit down, itâs seven oâclockâŚ
JON: Well, thatâs when Iâm at my best. I love it. I can look at a piece of writing that I did the day before and completely effortlessly know whatâs wrong with it and how to change around a sentence or how to move a quote from there to there. I just know how to do it. Itâs perfect and I feel totally like a writer.
DAVID: And youâre a very clear writer. Short sentences. Youâre very fond of the, âI looked at Derek. He didnât say anything.â kind of sentence.
JON: Yes, but unfortunately that clarity only lasts a few hours a day, and Iâd do anything to be able to have that clarity for a few more hours a day, but I just canât.
DAVID: Are you fast when you actually write? Youâve obviously done a lot of preparation before you start writing.
JON: No Iâm really slow. Iâll turn down any type of writing where you have to write in, like, two hours. I want months. The shortest thing I write is 3000 words and thereâs no way that I can guarantee anybody that I can do that in less than two weeks. And thatâs excluding the actual interview. Letâs say you interview one person for an hour and itâs a 3000 word article. I really need at least a week and most often two weeks to make that 3000 words work. Do you think thatâs like unusually slow? Or is that about normal?
DAVID: I think I would probably take about a week. What do you do that takes so long? Do you just look at the computer?
JON: I imagine myself pompously a bit like a sculptor. For anything from a 3000 word piece to a 70,000 word book, I look at it the same way. And this is what Iâve been doing the last few years. Iâll do all of the research, all of the interviews, so Iâll go off and have the adventure â and thatâs sometimes just sitting down with somebody or sometimes itâs getting chased by men in dark glasses, whatever it is, the actual field work â and then the first thing that I do after that is transcribe it. I always transcribe it myself, Iâve never sent anything out to be transcribed. It just feels like part of the process. So Iâll transcribe it, but Iâll never do a full transcript, Iâll just listen to the bits I might use and Iâll transcribe those. Once in a while Iâll then go back like a couple of weeks later and listen to it againâŚ
DAVID: So youâre editing in your mind as you go. If youâre leaving stuff out, youâve got an idea in your mind already.
JON: Yeah, I think so. I think I have an instinct for whatâs boring and whatâs good. Also if I remember the way somebody looked when they said that or some funny joke, some little funny aside, Iâll put that in bold. So then Iâve got like five to six thousand words, some of itâs quotes from the person, some of itâs my jokes and asides â and then, letâs say I need to do some other research, I go to Wikipedia, and Iâll put those notes in bold too to remind myself that thatâs not my thoughts, itâs Wikipedia. And if that person says something that leads me to go off on a different journey, Iâll do the same again and then Iâll add that to the bottom of the piece.
So itâs a mix of my thoughts and jokes, dialogue between us, independent research and other peopleâs research. And if itâs a book you maybe repeat that twenty times and then you suddenly realize youâve got 150,000 words. If itâs a 6000 word article youâve maybe got 20,000 words, 25,000 words. I feel like the 25,000 words is like a block of marble, and then you start to chip away at it. The second part of the process is structure and narrative arc, just like a dramatist would have.
Most importantly of all, itâs the whittling, itâs like, âAt what point is that sentence finished?â Every morning you go back to it and you can see things that arenât working and change them. But then one morning youâll go back to it and youâll realize that that paragraph just doesnât need changing anymore, and thatâs when you know itâs done. And when the whole thing doesnât feel like it needs changing anymore, when youâre looking at it at your most clear headed at seven oâclock in the morning and you think nothing needs changing â thatâs when you know itâs finished.
DAVID: That is what makes writing different to, particularly, film and television because a filmâs never really finished, itâs just what you hand in. But if youâre sculpting something like a human face, you donât think, âMaybe another eye.â Your writing, when youâve made it, itâs done.
JON: Yeah, exactly.
DAVID: Do you ever think, âWhy didnât I say that?â
JON: Sometimes a year or two later you look back and you think, âFive years ago I thought that was a funny joke. Itâs not.â And sometimes I go back to the tape six months later and realize that there was a whole thing that they said that I didnât transcribe thatâs actually really fucking good.
DAVID: When youâre transcribing I suppose youâre looking for specific things. Like you might be looking for somebody to talk about pianos and then you hear the tape and they go, âOh and by the way I shot my aunt.â And youâre thinking, âI didnât really get that the first timeâ.
JON: Like the person in the gorilla suit in the video. Have you seen it? Thereâs a video on YouTube where they say, âYouâre about to see a basketball game, and what you need to do is count the number of times the team dressed in white bounces the ball.â So you watch it and youâre counting. And then at the end of the video, it says, âNow go back and watch the video again and this time look out for the woman in the gorilla costume.â And sure enough youâve missed it. A woman in a gorilla costume comes in and walks off again and you totally donât see it. Itâs an amazing way of showing how weirdly your brain works.
If youâre writing non-fiction, itâs best not to have any preconceived notions, because quite often the fun is when youâre the idiot, when the thing that you thought was true turns out not to be true at all. But if youâre too stick-in-the-mud about your thesis, then you might lose a whole comic narrative thing when you realize youâve been a terrible twat and you arenât the worldâs best psychopath spotter and then the book becomes richer for that.
DAVID: Have there been moments when you stopped in midstream and realized that you werenât looking where you thought you were looking?
JON: Itâs always the best moment â and itâs never something you can fake. In The Psychopath Test, I genuinely got totally drunk with my psychopath-spotting powers and I was spotting psychopaths everywhere. There was a period of time when I was completely convinced that I could spot a psychopath. I mean I know more about psychopath-spotting than other people, but my confirmation bias was going through the roof and my lust for revenge and all these other things and I wasnât noticing it. My friend Peter said to me, âYouâre losing your mind.â And when he said that I started to unpick what had been happening to me, and that made the second half of The Psychopath Test good. But you canât pretend to think one thing just for the comic narrative of realizing that youâre wrong. It has to be authentic.
DAVID: Non-fiction is the same as fiction in that you can structure it like a novel.
JON: Good non-fiction. Some people love the other sort of non-fiction like Ben Goldacre. Ben Goldacreâs thing is, âI am an expert at this and Iâm going to start my book by telling you what the bookâs going to be about and then Iâm going to do it.â And people love that. Heâs smart and heâs a good writer, so Iâm not dissing that, but itâs not for me, I much prefer to think of journalism with the structure of a movie or a fiction.
DAVID: Somebody once said, âA story is just an explanationâ and thatâs what your books are. âStay with me and weâre going to find out about this togetherâ.
JON: Mystery and not knowing something is what fuels me. Not understanding the world is like the wind behind the sails. If you understand the world I donât know how youâd write it. Thatâs what makes Bill Brysonâs A Short History of Nearly Everything so entertaining, because you really get the feeling that youâre learning with him as he goes along. Iâm quite often surprised that more people donât write in that way. Thereâs a weird fetish amongst a lot of journalists to want to be seen as unimpeachably smart, so they donât want the joke to be on themâŚ
DAVID: So⌠whatâs your working environment? Is it full of busts of Shakespeare or is it a blank wall?
JON: Itâs a blank wall. I used to be able to work in busy offices and I canât anymore. I canât even work in cafes anymore, I need total quiet. My wife goes out with the dogs for about three hours in the morning and I sit in the front room which has got a nice view of the Hudson. So the first three hours I sit where she sits, and then when she comes back with the dogs I move into this little boxy office and close the doors. For some reason I need silence. I really envied Stanley Kubrick. When I was making the documentary Stanley Kubrickâs Boxes, his daughter said to me that he could concentrate totally, but then if somebody came in the room and interrupted him he could break concentration and chat away and then when that person left he could go back to concentrating. I canât do that at all. I need total silence and not being interrupted for those few hours when I can write with clarity.
DAVID: Fiction writers often like to play music because it affects their mood whereas I just find it gets on my nerves.
JON: And distracts you. The one thing I do do is that when I feel my brainâs starting to shut down a bit, Iâll maybe go on Twitter or something like that as a way to give my brain a break, get its energy back again. I do feel that a massive amount of my life is maximizing my dwindling amount of energy. I sort of think this is what death is like. But other days Iâll suddenly notice that itâs four in the afternoon and Iâve been working since seven in the morning and Iâve barely taken a break and Iâve been incredibly productive. So I think Iâm probably describing the worst days to you when Iâm talking about my energy sapping after two hours and I need to do something to get it back up again.
DAVID: I do that as well. I walk the dog in the park. Just being away from the working environment.
JON: That happens to me sometimes. What Iâll do because Iâm worried about my memory is I quite often email stuff to myself.
DAVID: Would you say that your ideas time is when youâre not at your desk?
JON: No, actually I think it is when Iâm at my desk. If I am out walking, I wonât try and think of ideas. Has anybody that youâve interviewed for this book said something thatâs totally surprising thatâs the opposite of the way you do things?
DAVID: The trivia are different. Some people play music, some people donât, some people work in the morning, some people work in the afternoon. But essentially it seems that writers work best for short periods of time early in the morning.
JON: I do think that I might have spotted a flaw in the early in the morning thing because I was so convinced for so many years that that was the case and then a few times I was unable to work first thing in the morning and I realized I worked just as well a few hours later. My view is that you definitely have a short period of time when you can work well and you think itâs first thing in the morning but actually it may not be. It could be at three in the after...