Conversations with Carl Jung and Reactions from Ernest Jones
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Conversations with Carl Jung and Reactions from Ernest Jones

Richard I. Evans, Jodi Kearns

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eBook - ePub

Conversations with Carl Jung and Reactions from Ernest Jones

Richard I. Evans, Jodi Kearns

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About This Book

The main focus of the Center for the History of Psychology Series Is publishing historically significant primary sources in book form. This volume Is a reprint of Richard I. Evans' 1964 book documenting portions of filmed conversations with Carl Jung at his home in the 1950s and subsequent conversations with Ernest Jones, and Includes new material presented In Evans' subsequent editions. We wish to present historians, students, and enthusiasts a robust research tool for exploring the work of not only early psychologist Dr. Carl Jung, but also of Dr. Richard I. Evans, who dedicated much of his professional career to documenting conversations with eminent psychologists on film in recorded Interviews. The historical record of psychology is enriched by these recordings.

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Part I
Prologue to a Challenging Venture
In the section that follows the writer has attempted to trace in some detail the challenging series of events which preceded the interviews with Dr. Jung and Dr. Jones.
In this section the writer also articulates his impressions and perceptions of the actual process of completing the interviews, including certain personality insights gained by the author based on limited but unusual contact with these notable figures.
Prologue
The idea of filming a series of interviews with Dr. Carl Jung, when it first occurred, seemed to be only a remote possibility. We knew that Dr. Jung had been approached unsuccessfully by several commercial television and film producers in the past. Yet, it seemed that this was worth a try.
Some months before this, the University of Houston had received an $18,700 grant from the Fund for the Advancement of Education to explore some new dimensions in university instruction. Dr. John Meaney, who at this time was director of the University of Houston Radio and Television Film Center, was involved with this project when he approached the writer concerning the possibility of utilizing these funds in some project involving psychology. We began to discuss possible approaches which could be pursued if a pilot project in psychology was initiated with these funds.
For years, like many other university professors in Colleges of Arts and Sciences, I had become increasingly aware of the tendency among great numbers of students to become less interested in reading the original writings of great contributors. They were becoming content to merely read “predigested” secondary sources which often did injustice to the intentions of these significant thinkers. For example, it always amazed me to find that a surprisingly large number of advanced psychology students had never actually read Freud’s original writings, but had read instead about Freud through the words of other writers. It seemed that there was a need to motivate the students to look directly at the original writings of such innovators as Freud, if they were to become truly informed and appreciative of their ideas. It then followed that a challenge lay in developing with our grant funds a stimulating technique which would encourage the students to pursue such primary contact with the ideas of important contributors.
Simply making films of lectures by these individuals, wherein they orally presented the same material about which they had already written, did not appear to be the most effective means for our purposes. The potential pitfall in this method is readily discernible in many college television courses. Specifically, the intellectual, in lecturing as in writing, tends to become somewhat pedantic, thereby losing the interest of his audience. It occurred to me that perhaps one technique which might be utilized to avoid this undesirable, imminent possibility was the filmed interview. Through use of the interview, the contributor could present his ideas in an atmosphere of spontaneity which would tend to “humanize” him, providing for the student a more pleasant and stimulating experience than is often allowed by the neutrality of the formal lecture.
The interview, of course, has long been used as a technique in such fields as journalism, law, psychotherapy, counseling and casework, and obviously is a fundamental device in our culture for gaining insight into other people and their ideas. Why would not carefully planned and filmed interviews be set up with eminent psychologists for instructional purposes? The student, through the interviewer, could be systematically introduced to a great contributor’s point of view. We liked the idea.
A course which I had offered for many years, Approaches to Personality, appeared to be a likely vehicle for such an effort, so all that remained was to find a manner in which to launch this technique in as dramatic a fashion as possible. Thus, the idea of interviewing Dr. Carl Jung, the only surviving member of the “big three” (Jung, Freud, and Adler), originated.
Most individuals became very skeptical of our chances for success when we announced that we were going to contact Jung and pursue the possibility of going to Zurich to film a series of interviews to launch our teaching-interview project. Success or failure, however, the idea of interviewing Dr. Jung was too appealing, so we proceeded to prepare to write to him.
The framing of this letter became an unusual task. One asks oneself if he has never met Jung, and knows him only as a near anachronism in the modern world, how his interest in such a project might best be solicited. Also, when one has spent many years of his life studying personality theory and has come to fully appreciate the historical importance of Jung in the psychoanalytic movement, the task of writing to him takes on an air of excitement.
In order to gain perspective for this task, I decided to contact Dr. Joe Wheelwright, a prominent Jungian psychiatrist at the Langley Porter Clinic in San Francisco. He had had considerable contact with Dr. Jung, and could be of much assistance to us as a liaison in our efforts to secure the cooperation of Dr. Jung. Thus, it was with gratification that my colleague and I received not only Dr. Wheelwright’s professed interest in the proposed project, but permission from him to mention his support of it in the letter subsequently dispatched to Professor Jung, requesting his participation in the initial interview of our series. That letter read as follows:
April 2, 1957
Professor Doctor C. G. Jung
Seestrasse 228
KĂŒsnacht-ZĂŒrich,
Switzerland
Dear Professor Doctor Jung:
A prominent United States foundation, The Fund for the Advancement of Education, has awarded us a small grant which will make it possible to begin filming for the use of undergraduate students a psychology course series of lectures and discussions.
In planning a course in psychology on film, it occurred to us that the presence on film of some of the truly great men in psychology would be an inspiration to our American psychology students. Naturally, the first name that came to our minds was yours. We have long been interested in your work, and your presence on film would in our opinion, add appreciably to the learning of our students.
If you would be willing to participate, we could fly to Switzerland to do the filming at your convenience. We would not request a great deal of preparation such as formal lectures would require, but rather, we would ask you to participate in a series of four informal interviews. We would, of course, submit the topics to you in advance, and in fact, would welcome your advice in choosing them. This would allow you to reflect fully the many interesting facets of your work. To avoid imposing on your time, these interviews could be spaced so that they could be filmed over a week’s time or longer. We would plan to spend a week or more in Switzerland, and, if it will fit into your schedule, could arrive on or around August fifth.
Dr. Joe Wheelwright, with whom we spoke concerning this matter, wishes to express his encouragement to you to work with us on these films. He shares our belief that it would be of great educational value to our psychology students, not only in this university but throughout the United States. Copies of the films could be made available to colleges everywhere in the United States.
Dr. John Meaney, Director of the Radio-TV Film Center at this university, as recipient of the grant, would produce the four films. He has produced many stimulating educational series for professional groups and for educational television. From my own experience working with him, I find him a most sympathetic and understanding student of psychology; so his work, I’m certain, would achieve the best possible results.
If you will permit us to do so and will suggest an appropriate amount, we shall be pleased to arrange for payment of an honorarium to you for your participation in these four films.
We are looking forward hopefully to a reply from you concerning this matter.
Cordially yours
Within ten days we received the following reply from Dr. Jung:
Prof. Dr. C. G. Jung
KÜSNACHT-ZÜRICH
Seestrasse 228
April 1957
Prof.
Richard I. Evans
University of Houston
Cullen Boulevard
Houston 4, Texas
Dear Prof. Evans,
I am inclined to meet your request, if you can limit yourself to four interviews on consecutive days, beginning on August 5th about 4 P.M.
As to the nature of your questions, I prefer your initiative. I would not know in what aspect of psychology you are particularly interested, I also cannot assume that our interests are the same. An interview should not last longer than one hour at the most, as I easily get tired on account of my old age.
Since I am not informed about the size of your grant, I should like you to tell me frankly what you intend in the way of an honorarium.
I hope you are sufficiently aware of the unreliability imposed upon me by my age. Whatever I promise is necessarily subjected to the ulterior decision of fate that can interfere unexpectedly.
Sincerely yours
I’m sure that you can imagine the delight with which we greeted this reply and the haste with which we proceeded in the direction of further planning. The following correspondence between Dr. Jung, myself, and Dr. Jung’s secretary, Mrs. Aniela JaffĂ©, is self-explanatory and traces the lines of events that led us to set up a firm appointment for four days in August of 1957.
April 18, 1957
Professor Doctor C. G. Jung
Seestrasse 228
KĂŒsnacht-ZĂŒrich, Switzerland
Dear Professor Doctor Jung,
We are all delighted to receive your letter of April 12. On the day that your letter arrived, it happened that we were discussing some of your contributions to personality theory in my Psychology of Personality class, and when I read your letter to the class, it was, indeed, a dramatic note.
The dates that you indicate that you can see us for the purpose of filming interviews, August 5, 6, 7, and 8, are just fine. Dr. Meaney and I would probably arrive in Zurich a few days prior to this, of course.
In looking over our budget, an honorarium in the amount of five hundred dollars would appear to be feasible. Does this seem to be sufficient? If not, please let us know and we shall make every effort to make some adjustment.
With respect to the content of the interviews and the kinds of questions that I would ask you, it would be our desire to direct the discussion to the level of the undergraduate college student in psychology. Examples of the areas of discussion that would be of interest at this level would be the unconscious, introversion-extroversion and the ways in which these tendencies interact with the factors in your tetrasomy (feeling, thinking, intuition, sensation), the Word-Association Method, views of human personality development and maturity, and so on. Naturally, we shall endeavor in every way to direct our interviews to meet with your complete approval.
On behalf of Dr. Meaney, our psychology department staff, and the University of Houston administration, I wish to thank you for your graciousness in accepting our proposal, thereby allowing our project to begin on such a distinguished note.
Cordially yours
April 1957
Richard I. Evans, Ph.D.
University of Houston
Cullen Boulevard
Houston 4, Texas
USA
Dear Prof. Evans,
Thank you for your kind letter. The proposed honorarium of five hundred dollars will suit me completely.
Thank you also for giving me an outline of the questions you are going to ask. I sincerely hope that I shall not be too complicated.
Looking forward to our meeting, I remain, Dear Prof. Evans,
Yours sincerely
May 16, 1957
Professor Doctor C. G. Jung
Seestrasse 228
KĂŒsnacht-ZĂŒrich, Switzerland
Dear Professor Jung:
We were delighted that the honorarium of five hundred dollars will be satisfactory. We are also pleased that the general discussion areas which we listed will be agreeable. May I raise an additional point? Dr. Meaney, who will, of course, be filming our interviews, would like your opinion of the lighting situation which for film work is very important, as you know. For example, at four in the afternoon during the early days of August when we have our appointments with you, is the lighting outside sufficient so that we may actually film the interviews outside in the front of your house, perhaps? From a technical point of view, this would make it unnecessary to set up special lighting which might be necessary if the interviews were filmed, perhaps, some place in your home. Sound could also be more effectively recorded outside. Your comments concerning these points will be greatly appreciated.
Incidentally, as a matter of routine, our University requires your signature on the enclosed form. We would appreciate it if you would sign it above your name. The extra copy is for your files. Please return the copy bearing your signature with your reply to this letter.
Needless to say, Dr. Meaney and I are very excited about our trip and the prospects of meeting and spending a few hours with you. Our students are already asking us when our filmed reports of the interviews will be available for them to see. Thank you again for making this venture possible for us.
Cordially yours
May 30, 1957
Prof. Richard I. Evans, Ph.D.
University of Houston
Cullen Boulevard
Houston 4, Texas
USA
Dear Dr. Evans,
I assume that you know the chaotic conditions of European weather. Concedente Deo, we have the most beautiful bright sunlight. But, if the NephelegeretĂ©s Zeus prefers to envelop our beloved country in shrouds of mist and rain, it may even happen that we have to put on the lights in the room. If the weather is good and hot, we have a lot of noise near the house on account of a public bathing place. In that case, we should retire to a remote corner of the garden, where there is no electricity. In this case, you would need about 100 yards of wire.—Well, I have to leave these technical decisions to yourself.
Here enclosed you also find the signed declaration.
Au revoir in summer!
Sincerely yours
We decided that it would be expedient as well as valuable, in the interest of our project, to interview another outstanding psychologist while we were in Europe. Acting on this decision, we requested an interview with Anna Freud. She, however, wished to defer to Dr. Ernest Jones, an eminent psychoanalyst and scholar, who had devoted much of his life to supporting the views of Sigmund Freud. The interview with Dr. Jones would be a noteworthy complement to the succeeding interviews with Dr. Jung. Moreover, since both of these distinguished scientists had had primary contact with Freud and had emerged from the contact with divergent points of view, they would provide a provocative contrast for the student for whom these films were intended.
We were fortunate in securing an appointment with Dr. Jones, so our first stop in Europe was Paris, France. When we arrived in Paris to complete our interview with Dr. Jones, a meeting of the International Congress of Psychoanalysis was in session. Upon entering the large auditorium where a general meeting was being held, we saw, seated on the stage among an array of significant figures in the psychoanalytic movement, one gentleman who immediately captured our attention. In his last years, Dr. Jones had grown a beard, changing his appearance and making it look, for just a moment, as if Freud himself was sitting there.
Knowing that Dr. Jones was in extremely poor physical condition, a victim of terminal cancer and a recent coronary attack as well, we would not have been surprised if he had decided not to follow through with the interview. However, initial contact with Dr. Jones dispelled all such solicitudes. Though he himself was quite preoccupied at the time with a host of friends and well-wishers who had gathered around him, he quickly referred us to Mrs. Jones, who assured us that her husband would be present at the appointed time and meeting place already arranged for the interview. Officials of a local Houston firm, the Schlumberger Corporation, had been kind enough to make their Paris offices available for the interview, and it was in this setting that we met with Dr. Jones.
The perspicacity and insight with which Dr. Jones approached the interview situation is readily discernible in his illuminating and candid responses to my varied inquiries. The lethal illness which daily pillaged his body of what little strength remained had gained no satisfaction at all over his keen, perceptive intellect; furthermore, as the reader will note, Dr. Jones’ poor health had in no way dulled the pungent sting of his words when he so chose to respond.
Feel...

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