The Awakening of Intelligence

J. Krishnamurti

• Publisher: Krishnamurti Foundation Trust UK
• Year: 2021
• ISBN:
  9781912875023
• Topic: Philosophie
• Subtopic: Humanismus in der Philosophie

This comprehensive record of Krishnamurti's teachings is an excellent, wide-ranging introduction to the great philosopher's thought. With among others, Jacob Needleman, Alain Naude, and Swami Venkatasananda, Krishnamurti examines such issues as the role of the teacher and tradition; the need for awareness of 'cosmic consciousness; the problem of good and evil; and traditional Vedanta methods of help for different levels of seekers.

INDIA

IV

Two Conversations:
J. Krishnamurti and Swami Venkatesananda

1The guru and search. Four schools of Yoga scrutinised (Karma, Bhakti, Raja, Gnana Yoga)

2Four “mahawakyas” from the Upanishads discussed. Communication and the Bodhisattva ideal. Vedanta and the ending of knowledge

1

J. KRISHNAMURTI AND
SWAMI VENKATESANANDA

The guru and search.
Four schools of Yoga scrutinised
(Karma, Bhakti, Raja and Gnana Yoga).

Swami Venkatesananda:¹ Krishnaji, I come as a humble speaker to a guru, not in the sense of hero-worship but in the literal sense which the word guru means, that is the remover of darkness, of ignorance. The word “gu” stands for the darkness of ignorance and ru stands for the remover, the dispeller. Hence guru is the light that dispels the darkness of ignorance and you are that light for me now. We sit in the tent here at Saanen listening to you and I cannot help visualising similar scenes; for instance, of the Buddha addressing the Bikshus, or of Vasishta instructing Rama in the royal court of Dasaratha. We have a few examples of these gurus in the Upanishads; first there was Varuna, the guru. He merely prods his disciple with the words “Tapasa Brahma . . . Tapo Brahmeti”. “What is Brahman?—Don’t ask me.” Tapo Brahman, tapas, austerity or discipline—or as you yourself often say, “Find out”—is Brahman and the disciple must himself discover the truth, though by stages. Yajnyavalkya and Uddhalaka adopted a more direct approach. Yajnyavalkya instructing his wife Maitreyi, used the neti-neti method. You cannot describe Brahman positively, but when you eliminate everything else, it is there. As you said the other day, love cannot be described—“this is it”—but only by eliminating what is not love. Uddhalaka used several analogies to enable his disciples to see the truth and then nailed it with the famous expression Tat-Twam-Asi. Dakshinamurti instructed his disciples by silence and Chinmudra. It is said that the Sanatkumaras went to him for instruction. Dakshinamurti just kept silent and showed the Chinmudra and the disciples looked at him and got enlightened. It is believed that one cannot realise the truth without the help of a guru. Obviously even those people who regularly come to Saanen are greatly helped in their quest. Now, what according to you is the role of a guru, a preceptor or an awakener?

KRISHNAJI: Sir, if you are using the word guru in the classical sense, which is the dispeller of darkness, of ignorance, can another, whatever he be, enlightened or stupid, really help to dispel this darkness in oneself? Suppose “A” is ignorant and you are his guru—-guru in the accepted sense, one who dispels darkness and one who carries the burden for another, one who points out—can such a guru help another? Or rather can the guru dispel the darkness of another?—not theoretically but actually. Can you, if you are the guru of so and so, dispel his darkness, dispel the darkness for another? Knowing that he is unhappy, confused, has not enough brain matter, has not enough love, or sorrow, can you dispel that? Or has he to work tremendously on himself? You may point out, you may say, “Look, go through that door,” but he has to do the work entirely from the beginning to the end. Therefore, you are not a guru in the accepted sense of that word, if you say that another cannot help.

Swamiji: It is just this: the “if” and “but”. The door is there. I have to go through. But there is this ignorance of where the door is. You, by pointing out, remove that ignorance.

KRISHNAJI: But I have to walk there. Sir, you are the guru and you point out the door. You have finished your job.

Swamiji: So darkness of ignorance is removed.

KRISHNAJI: No, your job is finished and it is now for me to get up, walk, and see what is involved in walking. I have to do all that.

Swamiji: That is perfect.

KRISHNAJI: Therefore you do not dispel my darkness.

Swamiji: I am sorry, but I do not know how to get out of this room. I am ignorant of the existence of a door in a certain direction and the guru removes the darkness of that ignorance. And then I take the necessary steps to get out.

KRISHNAJI: Sir, let us be clear. Ignorance is lack of understanding, or the lack of understanding of oneself, not the big self or the little self. The door is the “me” through which I have to go. It is not outside of “me”. It is not a factual door as that painted door. It is a door in me through which I have to go. You say, “Do that.”

Swamiji: Exactly.

KRISHNAJI: Your function as the guru is then finished. You do not become important. I do not put garlands around your head. I have to do all the work. You have not dispelled the darkness of ignorance. You have, rather, pointed out to me that, “You are the door through which you yourself have to go.”

Swamiji: But would you, Krishnaji, accept that that pointing out was necessary?

KRISHNAJI: Yes, of course. I point out, I do that. We all do that. I ask a man on the road, “Will you please tell me which is the way to Saanen”, and he tells me; but I do not spend time and express devotion and say, “My God, you are the greatest of men.” That is too childish!

Swamiji: Thank you, Sir. Closely related to what the guru is, there is the question of what discipline is, which you defined as learning. Vedanta classifies the seekers according to their qualifications, or maturity, and prescribes suitable methods of learning. The disciple with the keenest perception is given instruction in silence, or with a brief awakening word like Tat- Twam-Asi. He is called Uttamadhikari. The disciple with the mediocre ability is given more elaborate treatment; he is called Madhyamadhikari. The dull-witted is entertained with stories, rituals, etc., hoping for greater maturity; he is called Adhamadhikari. Perhaps you will comment on this?

KRISHNAJI: Yes, the top, the middle and bottom. That implies, Sir, that we have to find out what we mean by maturity.

Swamiji: May I explain that? You said the other day, “The whole world is burning, you must realise the seriousness of it.” And that hit me like a bolt—even to grasp that truth. But there may be millions who just do not bother; they are not interested. Those we shall call the Adhama, the lowest. There are others like the Hippies and so on who play with it, who may be entertained with stories and who say, “We are unhappy,” or who tell you, “We know society is a mess, we will take L.S.D.”, and so on. And there may be others who respond to that idea, that the world is burning, and that immediately sparks them. We find them everywhere. How does one handle them?

KRISHNAJI: How to handle the people who are utterly immature, those who are partially mature, and those who consider themselves mature?

Swamiji: Correct.

KRISHNAJI: To do that, we have to understand what we mean by maturity. What do you think is maturity? Does it depend on age, time?

Swamiji: No.

KRISHNAJI: So we can remove that. Time, age is not an indication of maturity. Then there is the maturity of the very learned man, the man who is highly, intellectually capable.

Swamiji: No, he may twist and turn the words.

KRISHNAJI: So, we will eliminate that. Whom would you consider as a mature, ripe man?

Swamiji: The man who is able to observe.

KRISHNAJI: Wait. Obviously the man who goes to churches, to temples, to mosques is out; so is the intellectual, the religious and the emotional. We should say, if we eliminate all that, maturity consists in being not self-centred—not “me” first and everybody else second, or my emotions first. So maturity implies the absence of the “me”.

Swamiji: Fragmentation, to use a better word.

KRISHNAJI: The “me” which creates the fragments. Now, how would you appeal to that man? And to the man who is half one and half the other, “me” and “not me”, who plays with both? And the other one who is completely “me”, who enjoys himself? How do you appeal to these three?

Swamiji: How do you awaken these three?—that is the trouble.

KRISHNAJI: Wait! The man who is completely “me”, there is no awakening in him. He is not interested. He won’t even listen to you. He will listen to you if you promise him something, heaven, hell, fear or more profit in the world, more money; but he will do it in order to gain. So the man who wishes to gain, achieve, is immature.

Swamiji: Quite right.

KRISHNAJI: Whether Nirvana, Heaven, Moksha, attainment, or enlightenment, he is immature. Now, what will you do with such a man?

Swamiji: Tell him stories.

KRISHNAJI: No, why should I tell him stories, befuddle him more by my stories or by your stories? Why not leave him alone? He would not listen.

Swamiji: It is cruel.

KRISHNAJI: Gruel on whose part? He won’t listen to you. Let us be factual. You come to me. I am the total “me”. I am not concerned with anything but “me”, but you say “Look, you are making a mess of the world, you are creating such misery for man”, and I say, please go away. Put it any way you like; put it in stories, cover it with pills, sweet pills, but he is not going to change the “me”. If he does, he comes to the middle—the “me” and the “not me”. This is called evolution. The man who is the lowest reaches the middle.

Swamiji: How?

KRISHNAJI: By knocking. Life forces him, teaches him. There is war, hatred; he is destroyed. Or he goes into a church. The church is a trap to him. It does not enlighten him, it does not say, “For God’s sake break through,” but it says it will give him what he wants—entertainment, whether Jesus entertainment, or Hindu entertainment, or Buddhist, or Muslim or whatever it is—it will give him entertainment, only in the name of God. So they keep him at the same level, with little modifications, a little bit of polish, better culture, better clothes, etc. That is what is happening. He probably makes up (as you said just now) eighty per cent of the world, more perhaps, ninety per cent.

Swamiji: What can you do?

KRISHNAJI: I won’t add to it, I won’t tell him stories, I won’t entertain him; because there are others who are already entertaining him.

Swamiji: Thank you.

KRISHNAJI: Then there is the middle type, the “me” and the “not-me”, who does social reforms, a little bit of good here and there, but always the “me” operating. Socially, politically, religiously, in every way, the “me” is operating. But a little more quietly, with a little more polish. Now to him you can talk a little bit, say, “Look, a social reform is all right in its place but it leads you nowhere,” and so on. You can talk to him. Perhaps he will listen to you. The other one will not listen to you at all. This chap will listen to you, pay a little attention and perhaps say this is too serious, this requires too much work and slips back into his old pattern. We shall talk to him and leave him. What he wants to do is up to him. Now, there is the other one who is getting out of the “me”, who is stepping out of the circle of the “me”. There, you can talk to him. He will pay attention to you. So one talks to all the three, not distinguishing between those who are mature and those who are not mature. We will talk to all the three categories, the three types, and leave it to them.

Swamiji: The one who is not interested, he will walk out.

KRISHNAJI: He will walk out of the tent, he will walk out of the room. That is his affair. He goes to his church, football, entertainment or whatever it is. But the moment you say “you are immature and I will teach you more”, he becomes . . .

Swamiji: Boosted up.

KRISHNAJI: The seed of poison is already there. Sir, if the soil is right, the grain will take root. But to say, “You are mature, and you are immature”, that is totally wrong. Who am I to tell somebody that he is immature? It is for him to find out.

Swamiji: But can a fool find out that he is a fool?

KRISHNAJI: If he is a fool he won’t even listen to you. You see, Sir, we start out with the idea o...